Comments on: Peace peace and more peace

By: yusef

yusef — Wed, 06 Jan 2010 15:24:05 +0000

I can also see that if you view the world as a sinking ship it may seem to you like a huge waste of time to spend breath chatting about whether the world is a ship at all. Maybe even more productive would be for us to discuss the oath each of us treads towards peace with our metaphors.

By: yusef

yusef — Mon, 04 Jan 2010 16:41:25 +0000

I agree that that is the fundamental disagreement. So it is probably more productive of the two of us to dialogue on our experience or characterization of the world (sinking ship and mother?-((I am not really comfortable using a metaphor for the world))) instead of talking about what follows from our divergent characterizations. The first choice holds the possibility for interesting and sparking discussion between the two of us, the second seems to lead mostly to frustration and misunderstanding. We need to speak together from a place not where we feel the same, but at least where we can share the same set of symbols for discussion. p.s. I am still not online.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Wed, 23 Dec 2009 14:44:23 +0000

“I would not characterize the world as a sinking ship.” and this is exactly where the disagreement lies. I’ve pointed people towards the documents which lead me to believe this characterization and that’s the best I can do.

If folks are unwilling to watch and consider that is their choice. In the coming days I will proceed with the ideas which I view as vital to moving off of the sinking ship; to land, to a floating ship, to life under the sea… that part is up to us.

By: yusef

yusef — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 17:17:11 +0000

Awarenesses beyond logical explanation. Meditative states of consciousness. Spontaneous openings and those happened upon through therapy and yogic exercises. Following the example of those I see as wiser than me. These too have also contributed to my opinions. Conversations with trees-honestly.

By: yusef

yusef — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:47:54 +0000

Actually so many things…

By: yusef

yusef — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 16:47:18 +0000

Of course our lives impact our perspectives. I am very blessed and thankful with my financial and vocational situation. Working with a Union and a democratically run institution, getting paid a living wage, and having ample free-time are beautiful beautiful things and I am sure they impact my awareness. Not being a Marxist I would not say my views are based entirely on these two facts. My persectives were shaped largely by my reading of Thich Nhat Hanh, my love relationship with Maria, and my studying with Dr. Gust Yep. This was in 2000-2002. They have been refined with my experiences being a father, a community member, and a teacher.

By: yusef

yusef — Mon, 21 Dec 2009 13:53:39 +0000

Thanks for your responses. It is funny, my nephew is very concerened about food shortages. I was telling him “Kurt, trust me there is nothing to worry about”. He says “If it’s true I will have the last laugh”. I laughed and laughed and said Kurt I don’t think if you are right everyone would be laughing!

You still want us to watch the videos, and I still want to hear from you, so there we are.

You are right about our view of the boat in that they are not the same. The problem is you have framed your response with your view of the boat i.e. the boat is sinking, let’s get our shit together. Then you framed “my response” a floppy version of it against that same metaphor. Not my own. Of course my response sounds silly in your context, as silly as yours does in mine. I would not characterize the world as a sinking ship.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 06:12:22 +0000

It’s interesting to me to note the differences in my situation and Yusef’s. He has a long winter break, a spring break and a summer. I get a few unpaid days at Chinese New Year and work on Christmas and western New Year. He’s a union employee on his way toward tenure, I have no guarantee that I’ll get a new contract or that my current classes won’t close, I’m only paid for the hours I teach…

My point being that it is much easier for a person in a good situation to be blind to the larger nature of the current world situation. While someone like me cannot escape from it. Whether you’re as comfortable as Yusef or scrambling like me I urge you to continue to explore these issues and watch the various videos. There are valuable ideas for us all to explore and grow from.

I’m going to be doing some reading and some resting and then I’ll come back with further installments. Thanks for reading, writing and peace.

By: Ryan

Ryan — Sat, 19 Dec 2009 05:22:04 +0000

I originally wrote this in response to Yusef’s Moving Forward post but it makes as much sense to put it here as there. I post it now to clarify my perspective on the urgency and nature of the situation. After I will comment on Yusef’s current post.

I am confused about a few things you’ve mentioned. What do you mean by the phrase power-with? How do we excert freedom and fairness? Also can you explain source consciousness a little bit?

If I understand things more or less as you understand them then I agree with what you’re saying. All of these ideas have great value and merit; both as ideas to meditate on and things to work toward.

Where I disagree is with the notion that I’m framing things in terms of what is wrong. Simply because I’m talking about things as they are doesn’t mean I’m “framing things in terms of what is wrong.” It means that I’m very concerned with a fuller understanding of our current situation. I’m concerned with this situation because there are many things, which are just the opposite of Yusef’s list of possible and desirable. If we want to move toward what a better today and tomorrow we need to understand what’s gone wrong.

Let me illustrate the situation thusly: we (the earth and it’s inhabitants, terrestrial and extraterrestrial) are on a ferry boat, the boat is out of food and fuel and taking on water, the captain is on the loudspeaker telling us that everything is fine, the first mate is selling spots in one life boat and hiding the other for personal use. Most of the passengers are asleep or drunk or both, a few of us have gathered on deck. We can see an island, there is a reef surrounding the island and sharks in the water.

I’m telling people, “Okay we need to start waking everyone up and gathering together. We need to get life vests, any supplies we can find, maps and information, things, which float. We need to cut the loudspeaker so that we don’t have to listen to the captain and we need a team that can either convince the first mate to share the lifeboats or take him out. When we go into the water remember we need to pair strong swimmers with weaker ones. Okay people let’s get going!”

Yusef seems to be saying, “What are our values? What do we want life on that island to be like? Do we want to live on that island? What about staying here, I don’t like to be negative about this boat we’re on. If we just have a clear intention of what we want it’ll be fine.”

Neither message is a bad one but one fits the situation as I see it and one doesn’t. Now hopefully I’m wrong and all of this is just horseshit, that’d be great. But what then, suppose we follow my path, getting organized making big changes is there any negative consequence to being prepared for a change that doesn’t come? No, there isn’t. All my way does is makes us more knowledgeable, more aware, less wasteful, more skilled and generally better situated.

If this is all horseshit Yusef’s path could have some of the same results. If it isn’t all horseshit, if there is really a big change coming our way then the best I can see along his path is death with a clear conscience.

Now don’t get me wrong death with a clear conscience is a wonderful thing, something we should all aspire too. I just suggest that we aspire to more.

Yusef your whole series of responses finally make sense to me, thank you for clarifying. If you had taken the time to really watch the videos in the beginning as I urged everyone (and continue to urge everyone) to do it would have been clear that no one in these videos is coming at these things from the places your friend and family member are coming from. If you had watched the videos you would have heard a message that most often is an eloquent blend of what we’ve both been saying.

But that would have fundamentally changed the nature of our discussion and I think that the discourse has been valuable in itself.